There are a lot of things I do not understand about God. I know a little bit, and I'm learning a little bit more, but at the end of the day, I can only say this:
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
“For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
“Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?”
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:33-36)
When it comes to understanding God, one question that I have mulled over lately is the question of the Trinity. Exactly how does that work? The only thing I know for sure about the Trinity is that God understands it, while I do not. I can hardly wrap my brain around God existing for eternity, let alone God existing for eternity as one God yet three distinct Persons. If my brain could ever literally explode from confusion, the Trinity would be the reason.
However, I do have some confused and rambling thoughts about the Trinity.
Calvin among others has said that Jesus is "God from Himself", because one of the early creeds said that Jesus is God from God - that is, begotten by the Father from eternity. The argument there is that to suggest He gets His "Godness" from the Father is essentially diminishing Him to the level of a sub-deity. One of the foundational attributes of God is that He must exist from Himself, without relying on anyone else.
Yet I think that whole argument misses the concept of the Trinity! God is one God, in three Persons. It is diminishing to the Trinity to suggest that any Person could exist without any other. All Persons of the Trinity together make up God. This One God cannot exist without the three Persons.
The Son is eternally begotten by the Father. The Son therefore needs the Father. The Father also needs the Son. The Father is not the Father without the Son, just as the Son is not the Son without the Father. The Spirit likewise proceeds from the Father. The Spirit would not be the Spirit without the Father. The Father would not be the Father without the Spirit. The Son likewise. Make sense at all?
The Trinity is God in unity, perfect in existence, power, will and authority. The persons are distinct, but not so distinct that they could exist without one another. I think that in all our meditation upon the Trinity, we should remember to balance the two. God is One, but three Persons. The three Persons are distinct, but one God, unified in love, faithfulness, dedication, and purpose. God works in perfect unity with Himself in all things, including our salvation, adoption, redemption and glorification. Amazing!
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (2 Corinthians 13:14)
Makes you wanna just stand opened mouthed in awe eh?
ReplyDeleteGreetings Linda
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of the Trinity,
I recommend this video:
The Human Jesus
Take a couple of hours to watch it; and prayerfully it will aid you to reconsider "The Trinity"
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
Adam, thank you for your comment and the link. The video stopped working at about 30 minutes, but I think that was sufficient to understand the purpose of the entire 2 hours. :) I have some comments and some questions for you, which you can answer at your own discretion, or not at all. It's up to you.
ReplyDeleteFirst, a quote from the video: "many believed Jesus was God Himself" Indeed, that is what I believe. I would even venture to state that Jesus believed this of Himself. It's certainly very hard to escape the fact that Jesus declared that much in John 10. The Jews at the time knew what He was declaring; they picked up stones to stone Him for what they considered to be blasphemy. Specifically in John 10:33 we see their understanding of His words: The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” (John 10:33 ESV)
Their understanding was correct. Jesus did in fact make Himself God. He declared Himself to be "one" with the Father - God Himself. Now, my first question to you: if Jesus declared this of Himself, it means He is either lying or telling the truth. If He is telling the truth, why do you not believe Him to be God? If He is not telling the truth, why do you believe Him to be Messiah?
Next, I have no dispute with the Shema. The background to this declaration was Egypt with its pantheon. This is the mindset, the lifestyle, and the framework in which God's people lived. For God to declare Himself as one, and then to say "you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength", was essentially declaring to the Jewish people that all the gods of the Egyptians were false, and there was to be no sharing of God's place. He is one; He is the only true God. He is the Living God. So this distinction is the reason for the first commandment: you shall have no other gods before me. Our whole being, our whole existence, should be focused on the Living God, not straying after idols with no existence and no ability to enact change or benefit for our sake. Only God is God. He is One. Yet this Oneness does not negate the fact of the Trinity, for the Persons are unified in Oneness. God Himself implies plurality when you look through Scripture, not only in the Old Testament, but all through the Gospels (Jesus declaring Himself to be one with the Father, as well as many other places) and the Epistles to the church. Jesus is clearly seen to be God in Revelation as well. The initial argument in the video concerning "Eh-chad" misses the point of the Christian argument. The paradox of God is not "three IS one" but rather "three IN one".
continued in next comment
Another quote from the video: "why would we want to depart from the Jewish creed?" The only reason would be that we believe Jesus was speaking the truth when He declared Himself to be God. Rather than picking up stones to stone Him, we bow to the reality of His deity. The disciples who were with Him knew Him to be God (John 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”, etc.). Through the history of the Church, through the written creeds (especially concerning the Trinity) we can see the process by which Jesus' Godness and God's oneness were reconciled. The only way to reconcile Jesus' words while believing Him to be true is to believe in the Trinity, the Three in One.
ReplyDeleteAfter that, the deduction concerning Jesus' views on Trinitarian/Unitarian theology is a false assumption. Jesus did not come to earth to argue and debate about the Trinity. He came to die as a propitiatory sacrifice. He upheld the character of God as revealed in the Old Testament - that God is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love (Exodus 34). He also came to uphold the Old Testament necessity of a sacrifice. The whole sacrificial system found in the Old Testament pointed ultimately to Christ, for the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins - only Christ could. That is why He came. That is why the cup was not passed from Him. The declaration of Christ's deity does not challenge His humanity - otherwise Jesus challenged His own humanity when He declared Himself to be God! This is another paradox which we believe but cannot fully explain: that Jesus was fully man even while fully God. Both are upheld by the Scriptures.
As far as it being "foreign to Jesus" that God is more than one Person, I think it was also foreign to Jewish understanding that the Messiah came to die. Again, Jesus did not come to earth to debate Trinitarian theology. He came to atone for the sins of men, to die and be raised in victory, to wash us of our guilty stains, to transfer His righteousness to His people.
Finally, I would post this video for you to consider. This one is only about 9 minutes. ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kreSbagj_RM
Greetings Linda
ReplyDeleteHow strange! At least four times, you affirm that Jesus declared himself to be GOD;
yet you have not supplied one verse where Jesus says anything such thing!!
No not one! Why? Because Jesus never ever made such a declaration.
Even in John 10.33ff, who does Jesus claim to be?
John 10.36: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest;
because I said, I am the Son of God?
Get it? Jesus is the Son of GOD i.e. the Son of the ONE GOD, his Father.
[2 John 3, Matt 16.16]
Jesus is indeed telling us the truth, despite what his enemies are saying? He is the Son of GOD!
Even by quoting Psalm 82, Jesus clearly shows in what sense, if at all, he could indeed be called by the term
god/elohim/theos. Answer: In the sense of being: the ONE GOD's representative and agent,
just like Moses [Exo 7.1, 4.16], and the judges [Exo. 21,6, 22.8-9, Psa. 82.6] before him.
But of course in this context, he has the preeminence seeing that he is the Messiah, GOD's Son.
Jesus is not only 'one' with the Father but also prayed that his disciples be one with the Father as well!!
John 17.11: Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17.21-22: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
What? Are the disciples now GOD? Are they part of the Godhead? Of course not.
Jesus wasn't stating any such thing.Then how are they to be 'one'?
In the sense of unity of will and purpose. Just as Jesus was in unity with His Father, obeying His will and submitting to His purpose;
Jesus now prays for his disciples that they would be the same i.e. one, even as we are one.
In John 10.30ff, Jesus was claiming such unity with His Father, thus claiming to be GOD's perfect representative; keeping the sheep safe, just as His Father does; hence his quote from Psalm 82 - showing that Jesus is indeed GOD's perfect representative as the true Son of GOD in contrast to the unjust gods i.e. the unjust sons of GOD depicted in Psalm 82. However, although unjust, yet the word of GOD came to them; hence, they were legitimately given the title god/elohim/theos.
How much more then, GOD's anointed, appointed, sanctified human Son, the man Christ Jesus.
(For more details, see Jesus is God )
Now look again at Mark 12.28-34, when Jesus quotes the Shema as the greatest commandment.
ReplyDeleteNote the scribe's response:
(Mark 12:32) And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
'He' not them.
Obviously then, neither Jesus nor the scribe were trinitarian!
The scribe did not think of Jesus as one of the Persons unified in Oneness!
No Jew of that era had such a concept and neither did Jesus, who incidentally is still a Jew!
No, Jesus and the scribe, like every believing Jew of their day,
acknowledged solely ONE Being, ONE Person, as their Creator. And that is, GOD the Father.
This both Jesus and the scribe clearly agreed in light of the Shema. Jesus even commended the scribe.
Not once is Jesus called 'GOD' in the book of Revelation.
In fact, where did the Revelation come from?
Rev 1.1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
What? Does GOD need to be given a revelation? I thought he was all-knowing, omniscient!
The very fact that GOD gave Jesus a revelation, ought to clearly show that Jesus is not Almighty GOD!
Let's not stop there, let's hear Jesus' testimony.
(Remember, Jesus is the faithful and true witness: Rev 3.14]
Rev 3.12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Four times! Four times Jesus declares my God.
Our Lord Jesus, four times declared he [still] has a GOD! How can Almighty GOD have a GOD?
By definition, if one has a GOD above them, such a one is NOT Almighty GOD!
Four times therefore, Jesus declared himself, even in Heaven, not to be GOD.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhich clearly makes sense, especially in light of these verses:
ReplyDelete(1) Heb 9.24: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
(Jesus isn't anymore GOD than Gabriel is, who also is in the presence of GOD - Luke 1.19.
Of course, I am not saying that Jesus is an angel.)
(2) 1 Thess. 1:9-10) For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,
and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Jesus Christ is in the presence of the ONE GOD, the ONE living and true GOD;
Who then is Jesus? THe Son of the ONE GOD.
The Thessalonians turned from idols and served solely the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
[Rom 15.6, 2 Cor 11.31, Eph 1.3,17; Col 1.3, 1 Pet 1.3];
whilst in contrast, await His Son from Heaven.
I suggest we do likewise.
They turned from idols to worship ONE Being, ONE sole entity as Almighty GOD and that was the Father.
Paul is consistent throughout his declarations.
(1 Cor 8:4) ... that there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Acts 17.24 God that made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth
[cp. Matt. 11.25, Lk. 10.21],
dwelleth not in temples made with hands; ...
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Now, do you really think, any converts from that sermon, actually turned from idols
to worship Jesus as GOD? Do you really think that was Paul's message to the Athenians as well as to the Thessalonians?
I declare to you NO!
Paul's message in concurrence with his Lord and Master is:
(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;
For more info on the word echad please see:
ReplyDeleteElohim and Echad
Linda: "why would we want to depart from the Jewish creed?" The only reason would be ...
So you do confess that you have departed from the Jewish creed??
Linda, please return to it.
Because it is actually the Scriptural creed of GOD's Oneness.
Jesus affirmed it. He believed it. He confessed it. The Shema - Deut 6.4.
Again, neither the scribe nor Jesus were trinitarians.
And neither was the early church - look again at 1 Cor. 8.4-6.
The early church acknowledged solely ONE GOD, the Father.
Whilst also acknowledging 'One Lord', Jesus the Messiah,
because the ONE GOD, raised Jesus from dead, and
made him both Lord and Christ to His (the Father's) glory
[Act 2.36, Phil 2.11]; that is:
And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
ONE GOD, the Father.
ONE Lord, the man Christ Jesus,
the Son of the Father.
[2 John 3]
That is the early church's creed.
That is the Christian creed.
No talk of the deity of Jesus.
Because that would make two Gods! God and Jesus!
Something Christ, Paul and the early church never declared.
Why? They all (including Jesus) recognized solely ONE GOD, that is, the Father.
Linda: Jesus did not come to earth to argue and debate about the Trinity. He came to die as a propitiatory sacrifice.
Amen! Again, showing that Jesus cannot possibly be Almighty GOD? Why?
Because GOD CANNOT DIE! He alone possesses immortality. It is His to give.
[1 Timothy 6.16]
The very fact that Jesus was dead [Rev 1.18] should be proof enough in itself that he himself is not GOD, much less a part of a so-called trinity; which neither Jesus nor any of his disciples had ever heard of, much less taught.
Therefore, Linda, please endeavor to watch the rest of the video.
(If it still does not go pass 30 minutes, let me know. I will see if there is another link; e.g. try
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8436256589572340879
It clearly went pass 30 minutes when I tried it)
The video also addresses John 20.28.
Yours In Messiah
Adam Pastor
Well, Adam, I did not mention the verses because I assumed you knew enough of the Scriptures to know what verses I would reference, and if you wanted to continue the conversation (which I can see that you do), you would be able to counter-argue without me having to bring them all up. For the sake of the continuation of this argument, I will bring them all up here in response. You seem to have ignored, however, the verse I quoted from John 20:28, where Thomas says "my Lord and my God", and Jesus did not correct him. If Jesus was not God, would He not have had to correct Thomas, seeing as Jesus is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life?
ReplyDeleteThe claim of sonship does not deny Christ's Godship. You would ignore to the detriment of your argument the previous verses, where Jesus says "I and the Father are one", and the Jews seek to stone Him because of this declaration. They knew He was claiming to be God. I'm pretty sure I get it, and I would appreciate the tone of your words remaining at least a little bit respectful. Not necessarily for my sake, but for your own.
Yes, Jesus prayed that His disciples would be one with the Father just as He is one with the Father. To me, that is a beautiful concept: the perfect unity found in the Trinity, the perfect, mutual love, is what we will have with the Father through Christ Jesus. Your mocking tone does little for the conversation, but I will answer anyway: no, of course the disciples are not a part of the Godhead. But we are, in Christ, unified with the Father, adopted as His children, and we will be glorified in heaven with the perfection of Christ's righteousness. Your assumption of my belief is incorrect.
ReplyDeleteAs to Mark 12, I agree; "He", not "Them". This is the idea of the Trinity: one God, three Persons. I have no dispute with that. However, I do dispute the assumption that Jesus was not a trinitarian, although I would agree with you that the scribe was not. Jesus came with drastic, fanatical changes to both the Jewish and the Gentile mindset. Why do you think the gospel is called a stumbling block, and folly?
As to Revelation, it gives a clear picture of Jesus' deity throughout the whole book.
And don't fall into silly arguments about omniscience. Why did God have to "come down" to see the people and their works at Babel, if He was not omniscient? (Genesis 11:5-7)
That the Father gave the Son this revelation does not mean Jesus did not know it, either. It just means they work together in unity, as they did when Christ dwelt on earth. The Father gives to the Son, the Son carries out the will of the Father.
ReplyDeleteIn Revelation 1:4-5, it says
4 Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
The phrase in verse 4, ‘him who is and who was and who is to come’, clearly refers to God. The ‘seven spirits’ is a description of the Holy Spirit. The number seven symbolizes perfection and completeness. It is a way of saying the Holy Spirit is flawless. Verse 5 speaks of Jesus Christ. Grace and peace flow from the three Persons together. That is possible only if the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are also divine beings, the other two Persons making up the Trinity.
Other titles for Jesus found in Revelation point towards His deity: He commands the angels and the churches, holding them in His hands; He is the First and the Last (Alpha and Omega, a title reserved for God); He has the sharp two-edged sword; He is the Son of God, with eyes like a flame of fire, feet like burnished bronze; He can blot names out of the Book of Life; He is the Holy one; True one; He holds the key of David; He opens, and no one will shut, shuts, and no one opens; He is the Amen; He is the faithful and true witness, and the beginning of God's creation [that is, the one who BEGAN God's creation]. All of this points toward Jesus' sovereignty, His omnipotence, that He is almighty, that He is God.
ReplyDeleteIn Psalm 45:6-7, it is seen that God in one sense is distinguished from God in another sense.
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. The sceptre of your kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness;
7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;
These verses are addressed to God the Son, and speak about God the Father. "God" in verse 6 is Jesus Christ, while "God, your God" is the Father. This does not mean there are two Gods, but that there are distinct Persons.
In Zechariah 2:10-11, the LORD [the Almighty, Sovereign God] declares that He will dwell in the midst of His people. Then He declares that the LORD has sent Him [the LORD] to them. Clearly God the Son, Jesus, is speaking, and God the Father has sent Him.
ReplyDelete10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for behold, I come and I will dwell in your midst, declares the LORD.
11 And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people. And I will dwell in your midst, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
As to New Testament declarations of Godhood, you can look at anywhere Jesus declares, "I Am". As I believe I've already mentioned, this is a dircect declaration tracing itself back to God's name as revealed to Moses. In particular, you can read Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70, John 8:58, John 13:13, and John 18:6.
Hebrews 9 merely states Jesus now dwells in the presence of the Father in heaven, instead of dwelling on earth. He is resurrected, alive, and preparing a place for us. Again, this does not negate Jesus' deity, but rather promotes the concept of the Trinity.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 8 seems more to bolster my point than yours; God is one, agreed. Verse 6 declares more than you think. Not only does it declare that the Father is God, it also declares Jesus Christ is Lord (alluding back to the LORD in the Old Testament), and says that all things (even us) are by Jesus.
You are right that Paul is consistent. But are you aware of what his consistent stance really is?
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
(Colossians 1:15-20 ESV)
Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
ReplyDeleteSee to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
(Colossians 2:6-10 ESV)
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
(1 Timothy 4:10 ESV)
I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
(1 Timothy 6:13-16 ESV)
Besides these, the whole book of Hebres essentially declares that Jesus is God, especially the first chapter, which references back to Psalm 45.
ReplyDeleteI will not depart and go back to the Jewish creed, for I follow the Christian creed, which is Christ Jesus. He has fulfilled the Jewish creed, and has commanded me to follow Him on a higher plane than merely keeping laws and traditions of men.
Contrary to your belief, I have not departed from the creed declaring God's oneness.
Adam, the very distinction of Christianity from the rest of the world's religions is that God did, indeed, die. Not the Father, but the Son. He came to die. He came to earth as a Man, taking on the form of a servant, living in humility, living in flesh. The very fact that Jesus was dead proves how much God loves us, that He was willing to do this for sinners, for His enemies, to reconcile them and call them His friends; and not only His friends, but His adopted children.
For further consideration, please see Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23, Isaiah 9:6, Luke 7:16, John 1, John 5:18, Hebrews 1:8, Mark 14:61-62, and John 14:9. Consider also the titles of Jesus: the Word of God (declared to BE God in John 1), Emmanuel (God with us), Lord (referencing back to the Old Testament title of God), besides all that Jesus declares Himself to be, the Door, the Light, the Good Shepherd, the Vine, etc.